First of all let me apologise for the lengthy post. I have a few opinions and would be nice to see if anyone agrees/disagrees. I worked for a betting shop for years and hated the machines so much. Was addicted to them myself. I know we can not blame them but I do think the way they are designed is completely immoral and would love to see more actions took on them.
They are 100% designed to annoy you. With horse racing or other sports the process is much longer. If your horse gets beat on the line it annoys the hell out of you but in order for you to try win it back (if you choose to) you first have to pick another bet, write it out and then go up to the counter to put it on. Also the race is a length of time. This is a lot slower than a machine, it gives you a couple seconds to calm down.
With FOBT's there is no time gap. Imagine you have your biggest bet on number 3 and the ball lands right next door on 26. Of course you are going to be annoyed and emotions high. Whilst in this state it only takes literally 2/3 seconds to hit repeat bet and spin. The same situation happens and you are even more wound up -repeat- within 2 minutes of losing your head you are now down 500 more than you planned to be. From there it can spiral out of control.
Another feature that really annoys me and I dont think they can justify is a feature of slots I believe is completely 100% only there to annoy you and raise emotion. When you play slots there is a random bonus feature. For example it is not based on getting three of the feature symbols and triggering the bonus. The feature itself is a good idea but the feature of the random bonus starting to go off and then cancelling is only a trigger to annoy you. On one game a grenade randomly starts filling up and then either blows up giving you the feature or starts filling up and then just stops. Imagine you are down to your last £5 after losing £1000 and the grenade starts randomly filling up as if its about to give you the bonus feature but then stops and doesnt. This can only annoy you. I have never seen anyone play and not get annoyed at that. It is a feature that is only there to dissapoint you.
We were definitely told to push the machines on people. They are well aware that they could make far more money from machines players than anyone else. I used to refuse to try and push them on the older customers who had never used them. Instead would only do the bare minimum and show players that were already machine players the new games.
The violence and abuse would always be from the machine players. Machines would get hit or spat on. We would be told thanks for hitting the lose button and receive death threats ( so many people seemed to think that we controlled them).
The goverments new rule of £50 spins max unless authorisation had no effect. It only caused problems for us. they would ask us to authorise £100 spins and then say we had fiddled with the machine by doing this.
There are some things the goverment could do. I think the number one thing they could is increase time delays between spins for the casino games. There is no need for anyone to be able to spin 3 £100 spins within a minute. There motto is only play what you can afford. No one can afford £300 a minute and especially when the max win in a spin is £500.
The second thing is people should have to sign up and give their details in order to be able to play (Kept confidential and no letters to house). This would allow losses to be monitered and allow for a better self exclusion process. Could also allow for a certain time limit a day to be put on them. Nobody can justify that someone is gambling comfortably when they are using the machine from open to close.
Lastly I would limit the availability. Betting shops are now open far longer because of these machines. We are told when doing our compliance training that people who gamble first thing in the morning or last thing at night at much more likely to have a gambling addiction. Betting shops have now extended hours so that some are open from 8-10 on a sunday when most sport has finished.
This post went on for a lot longer than I expected. I know nothing will change. These machines bring in too much tax. Although I have went on about why they are bad in no way am I blaming them. We are at fault for playing them. No one forces us.
This post has been theraputic for me though. It has allowed me to reason how much of an idiot I was for playing them.
Anyway, whats your thoughts?
I suppose the random feature being annoying is kind of like needing 4 nudges to get a feature and only being given 3 to the fruit machine player.
These machines constantly take the P like that & though I've only ever been a "small stakes but enjoying gambling way too much" kind of gambler it was one of the things that always got to me.
I see your point, they say that a near miss is as good as a win to the human brain & the chemical release is there.
I may very well have missed your point here...Of course they are designed to reel us in, that is what gambling is about! You don't introduce food products if people won't eat them! I have been that person with the grenade & I'm not sure the anti-climax of the ticking stopping annoyed me, more broke my heart (again)
I do agree with a National registration system as this would allow us to efficiently self excluded but you cannot monitor a diverse society with limits as a person chucking in their dole, rent, food money would not trigger any alarms & why should the 'high rollers' be dragged down to our level, some people do gamble responsibly. Imagine trying to checkout a weekly shop only to find you've gone over 'your' allowance because this has been regulated to help over-eaters or not being able to buy booze for a party because alcohol purchase is restricted :-0
It will sound completely nuts but I am grateful for the FOBT bringing me to my knees...I suspect I would have gone on gambling much longer had my stakes stayed manageable. I was, still am, a pretty messed up person but understanding addiction has given me a shot @ a much better life...It's out there for all of us if we choose to take it!
The features are deliberately designed in to keep the brain juices flowing and the punter playing. The bookies employ gaming experts to that end. The only way to win on them is to keep your money firmly in your pocket.
Maybe picturing the fatcat bookie boss whose yacht you've helped pay for might help?
ODAAT I get what you are saying with not limiting people but maybe I didnt make my point clear. When I talk about limiting people I dont mean to an allowance of money I mean time. And also a big point which I may have not made clear is I do not mean the goverment setting a limit, I mean the player setting a limit. At the moment you can set time limits but its not linked to your identity, as you probably know it asks if you want to set a limit and then gives you a reminder when its up. In all my time working at the betting shop i have never seen anyone take notice of the reminder never mind stop gambling because of it. Most people turn there head away and tap frantically till its away.
If we could be linked to an account and set a time limit for daily, weekly or monthly it would mean we would have to stop. To change the limit there would be a time delay. Just the same as a lot of online accounts have, nothing new. I suppose the same could apply with deposits, same principle, the player chooses the amount.
Also I see what you are saying with high rollers being able to gamble more than people on the dole. Again, it wasnt limits I meant. I was on about monitering losses. This could flag up patterns and definitely show signs of gambling problems arising. Someone who usually plays £20 a week on average spiralling up to losing £1000 is clearly losing control. At the moment we have alerts in place for someone playing a lot in one session but we have no idea what they lost prior to coming in the shop.
Lastly, I do get they are designed to drag us in. Of course they have to look tempting with the bright lights and familiar games what I struggle with is the bits that are designed to keep us playing longer, of course I get why they do it, I just dont understand why it's allowed. The bits that I feel are made to purposely wind us up and raise emotions which in turn result in us being more likely to make bad decisions. I would constantly see people punch the machine or spit on them when one of these features would happen. I dont think if I ever asked anyone they would have said they enjoyed it or seen it as increasing the entertainment.
I just wonder if in some shady meeting room high up the ladder they ever actually openly speak about the fact they want the gambling addicts in the shop. They want the people who take loans out and blow it in their shop. In all the training sessions I attended they would always state we dont want gambling addicts in the shop, we only want people who are comfortable betting. Of course this is a lie, but do they ever actually openly speak their true intentions?
Who knows.
Still find myself disagreeing...I couldn't drag myself away when my car was being locked in the car park, who do you think frustrations would be taken out on if the timer ends mid feature or do you foresee a Mastermind, I've started so I'll finish experience?
Also, what is your proposal for when patterns of an addicted gambler are identified? People on here who have actually taken the step of looking for help, day in, day out still refuse to accept that which is available. Why should it be down to the industry to decide when we've had enough? I know no barrier is 100% effective but when I decided to stop, I cut off my access to money...No money, no gamble. Playing limits, even if they are enforced with an identity card would be as easy to get around as us getting our hands on money when it's supposedly cut off from us.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like the industry anymore than you do, it's just no-one has a gun to our heads, it's down to us to enforce these restrictions ourselves not expect a multi billion pound industry to do this for us @ a reduction in profit margins.
Our problem isn't how much we gamble or for how long, it's gambling full stop!
I'm not saying it's a perfect solution but it is a way for some protective measures to be taken. I know personally that limits have worked to an extent for me using online accounts. Not always, but sometimes. There is a reason for them.
Also I am not saying do these measures as a solution for us people with gambling problem. Just have measures in place to try and prevent more people getting to that stage. if a pattern is recognised advice should be offered- pretty much the same as we have on posters the now. I know you will say that people will ignore the advice but some might not. They could show statements of what you have actually lost. I know I never had a clue how much I had spent. Of course limits would be possible to get around but even just the fact of having to find a way to get round a limit instead of being able to play on past what you mean to straight away is a step in the right direction.
My only point from this whole thread is that FOBT's are extremely addictive. Of course you can be as easily addicted to other forms of gambling but these machines are far easier to get hooked on. When I think of my time working in the shop, for every one sports addict there was ten fobt addicts. The amount of 18 year olds I would see come in and try a machine for the first time and 4 months on be spending all day in the shop was shocking. There is a reason they are referred to as the crack C*****e of gambling. The goverment, not the industries should be looking at measures to protect players more (more being the key word there not completely). They already are with the £50 spin coming into force. I am not saying they are responsible at all for us who gamble more than we should, we can only blame ourselves for that. As you say no one has a gun to our head.
What I am saying is nothing new. There is already protective measures in place such as time limits, reminders, self exclusions, no credit cards in shop, but there is far more to be done. All I would like to see is the rate of people becoming addicted to fobt machines decrease. With the amount of fobt machines we have in britain now it shoud be a major priority.
What would your solution be or what changes would you make? Do you think the problem of preventing people become addicted is something that can be tackled?
Hi
Yes the machines are extremely addictive. The features are designed to build up tension and annoy with a near miss or nearly there syndrome....next time ...next time. Psychologists help design the damned things. Annoyance and tension makes a compulsive gambler lose control faster. I would have thought that annoyance and losing money would make me walk away but if anything it made me more determined to keep gambling
When a third bonus reel starts spinning faster its all to do with building up the falsehood and tension that we nearly made it on that spin. The reel positions were already picked by a random number generator so its all to do with clouding the odds further in their favour. The next point is that the bonus game is often free spins which will most often not lead to anything...so again the bonus is often not actually a bonus and on the deception goes
The symbols on the reels are also carefully designed and positioned so we fill in the gaps with our addicted imaginations...if only reel 2 had been a bit lower or if only reels 3 and 5 had been in place it would have been a full picture jackpot...a lovely lady, a pyramid or a dolphin...whatever we escaped into...if only! The random number generator was as far from a win as it could be but I didnt want to accept that at the time. In many ways I wanted the emotions of being cheated.
It gives a false representation of what the machine is actually doing. There was a point where I felt myself going over the edge in terms of compulsive gambling. This happens quite quickly for compulsive gamblers as we cant accept losing, the red mist trance takes over and the near miss syndrome makes us feel we have more of a chance. I knew I was getting worked up but I could not control myself and I could not stop myself. Compulsive gamblers ignore the odds and they do so willingly which is very strange when analysed. Its a licence for the gambling dens to print money......... a tax on the poor feeling hopeless
I was an ideal "customer" for the gambling dens. Ive seen people punching the screens and Ive seen a man waving his money above his head and wailing that he was losing it all but he kept returning and feeding notes into the slot. It just looks like the mental illness that it is and on a couple of occassions it snapped me out of the trance and I had to leave the arcade or bookies
I dont actually think much can be done short of the real measures of banning the machines and heavily regulating gambling. Indeed the way I feel now I would like gambling banned altogether.
The government are making too much money from the tax to be bothered about the misery it causes.
Best wishes to everyone on the forum
Sorry but I think we're really P***y footing around the issue.
I don't see why machines can't just be banned on the grounds of their addictiveness and thus social harm.
I mean, we banned asbestos (which isn't even addictive).
The Industry makes out there's a huge class of 'take it or leave it' types, the ocassionals, who would suffer. Its like this would be violating their human rights, or something.
But of course herein lies the paradox.
Question 1 - who/how large is this 'take it or leave it group', in reality, and 2) How much would these people suffer?
A genuine, ocassional 'user' will treat the odd gamble on a machine as a frivolity. Anything more than a frivolity then, to be honest, they're 'on the spectrum', so to speak. Those relative few that genuinely do treat it as an ocassional frivolity can't be be too bothered to lose out. Even if they're a 'bit' bothered, well too bad.
Step 1. Commission large scale independent research into this issue. You would find out that addictive gambling is behind over 95% of all machine gambling. This gives you basis to move onto....
Step 2. Ban the machines
At this stage, I issue my disclaimer. Addiction is ALWAYS about personal responsibility. I'm mindful that excessive focus on The Industry can be unhealthy as it can come at the expense of personal responsibility.
Anyway, hopefully one good thing to come out of Grenfell, is a move away from the neo-liberal approach to deregulation of everything. This idea that 'red tape' is holding us all back. When in fact, regulations are usually made to protect people, whether as workers, consumers or just in every day living. The real reason for this obsession with deregulation is to allow big business to make more money. Regulation gets in the way of obscene profit. Deregulation leaves the public more vulnerable.
(There's actually an organisation called the Red Tape Initiative which exists soleley to strip back building regulation protections. They've probably gone a bit quiet recenty. The organisation is led by various Conservative Ministers and MPs and big business. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/grenfell-fire-public-inquiry-stitch-up-red-tape-regulation-policy-exchange
I know this might sound like a digression but I don't think it is. Fire safety regulation is a part of it. But there's a wider issue about Governments being accountable to its citizens rather than big business.
I don't see this as too different from the battle against Big Tobacco. It's taken at least a half century for government's to start to stand up to Big Tobacco. Big Tobacco isn't stupid - it got inside government. So when Big Tobacco said it was all about choice, governments went along with it.
Perish the thought that the government would put prioritise social harm reduction before...before... its not even clear what the underlying motive is in deregulating the betting industry. Yes, there's short term tax benefit but I'm sure the economics don't even bear out as if people are skint they generally need propping up from the state/they commit crime/they stop being economically active. It's really about ideology, the belief that you should not interfere with the market.
Gambling and smoking pale into insignificance when compared against the real burning issue (quite literally) of global warming. The USA is the home of neo-liberalist deregulation and look what's happening there. Fossil fuel companies spend $115million per year lobbying the USA government to prevent the government tackling climate change- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oil-companies-climate-policy_us_570bb841e4b0142232496d97
Am off for a lie down...
ps. re CAPTCHA - does a 'sign' include the post? Never sure on that one...
I don't know what the answer is but in response to a total ban I have to point out that drugs & prostitution in this country are already illegal...Doesn't stop them. Banning the machines will push people underground just like Prohibition did back in the day.
Really don't see a ban on fbots in bookies as being radical. They didn't exist 20 years ago.
Joydivider- Great to see someone who really understands random number generators and the way the machine works. Always found it funny though how it used to still annoy me being close even though I knew logically I was never close. For example landing next door to a number on roulette.My head would know I was never near that number but I couldnt help but feel as if I was. People used to argue with me that the machine would slow the ball down and make it land short of where it was supposed to. I would tell them time and time again that the machine just picks a number using a rng then shows you the video for that specific number. After a while I realised it was better just to pretend to agree.
If we're realisitic they are unlikely to be banned. Something drastic would have to happen to bring it into the media in a much bigger way than it is the now. There is far too much money made from them. In the same way with cigarretes being legal. They bring in too much money. The goverment can hide behind lots of reasons to keep them legal but in truth it all boils down to tax. One of the reasons they say they cant ban them is because people are already addicted basically but in truth they could just raise the age limit by one year each year eventually meaning anyone under 18 would never be legal to buy them.
ODAAT- Yes, people would still gamble underground but it would be far fewer people. Can guarantee the number of people taking drugs would multiply at least ten fold if they were legal and there was as many shops selling drugs as there is bookmakers. People still smoke weed but the number of people smoking weed than the number of people drinking alcohol is only a fraction, even though there has been many studies showing that weed isnt nearly as bad for you.
Cardhue- Love your point about the rights of the occasional user. As if there would be mass outrage from the people who are supposed to treat gambling as a small part of their life. Surely the good outweighs the bad in this respect.
Realistically they are not going to be banned. The gambling lobby has too many ears in governent thanks to the stellar amounts it contributes to the national coffers. There is however a potential halfway house. Given they enable casino style levels of gambling there's a strong case to be made for restricting them to licensed casinos only. Having to hunt them down might prevent an incipient problem gambler from developing a full blown problem and should also offer a measure of protection to the casual customer.
If you seriously think banning the FOBT will resolve the gambling epidemic, you are (in my opinion, of course) deluded! Not everyone starts there & yes, they are designed to hook people in but what about online...You don't even need to step foot out of your house for that particular pleasure!
If you have ever dealt with the government directly, it focuses the mind that they are not accountable to the average citizen. My view is that they couldnt care less about the average citizen. Thats the root of the problem and I cant see the answer when big money talks.
Banning easy access on the high street would save a great many people from the misery of gambling. I wanted the easy fix and whats easier than walking in off the high street? I wasnt prepared to go and sign in somewhere but high street gambling made it all too easy.
Yes I bear enough of the the responsibility but I was an addict. My life was in a constant state of being down to a couple of hundred quid with bills to pay. I was depressed with my lot and I had done a series of jobs which were only available to me because nobody else really wanted to touch them. I realised I was part of the poor and hopeless set I talk about. I was given the exorbitant fees for basic training but didnt see where the work was coming from afterwards.
Some lady was supposed to whisk me away to a luxury beach house but of course that didnt happen. I have been a dreamer, a drifter and a manic depressive all my life. Maybe I wanted it a bit too easy but I didnt fully realise how hard life gets. Im now trying to ease that and sort it all out.
I looked at the grim and depressed faces along the row of machines and we couldnt maintain eye contact for long because we all knew it was just a reflection of our sad selves. I saw myself in others and thats a depressing feeling. I knew that we had all given up on the shopping trip round town to try and fill our empty souls with a gambling fix. Its not that we were shopping for much anyway
I didnt really see any occasional users treating it as a frivolity. I would like to know who those people are. Once you start on the machines the frivolity soon wears off as the addiction takes hold. I believe the machines create addicts faster than anything.
So I see a sick world where companies are allowed to spend hundreds of thousands developing these machines . Its clear to anyone that they are creating a huge gambling problem but not enough is being done to protect people because there is a vested interest in just paying lip service to a major problem
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