*****

Cheating... now there's an interesting concept.

There are no rules to this, so how can you cheat?

The only rule I would say there is, is that you should always at least be honest to your self.

If you can play the lottery, and not feel it is any threat to your recovery, then thats fine. Do it if you want to.

If you play the lottery and feel it is becoming compulsive, then stop.

If you play the lottery and feel it becoming compulsive but carry on... then yes... you are probably cheating yourself.

I don't play it myself as I did start getting a bit compulsive on it. I.e. My 1 line a week turned into 2, turned into 5, turned into 10, so stopped.

These days I do not consider the lottery really gambling. The odds are far too slim. I prefer to think of it as a complete waste of money. :~)

Like i said though... you make the rules to your recovery. So what ever you think is for the best.

My only little addition to this would be to advise against talking about it too much on the forum, especially if you have any wins.

Hope this helps

SA

Hi johnny

As SA had said thats an interesting question, and your likely to get many different responses.

I personally especially in early recovery found some value in a Focus Point of Commitment.

In other words I didn't trust myself to muck around with definitions of Gambling, Either I was in this all the way or I wasn't. I am not at all a Big fan of celebrating or imagining the last date gambled means much BUT I couldn't recover from anything without a Commitment to abstinence (thats really a tiny begining in a Living Recovery BUT a unavoidable first Step), It was so easy for me (judging from my history of trying to stop) for my mind to take me to gambling when I was mucking around with IS THIS or IS THAT in terms of definition.

I am not sure in your case BUT perhaps you could withdraw from the lottery and see what happens? Maybe you will get clues as to how deep taking the lottery really does GO and its connection to CG'ing.

My suggestion would be to look at the situation through a Honest, willing and Open-minded filter.

By the way SA is right, it probably doesn't help all that much to imagine Rules in Recovery. My experience is establishing Absolutes is just as much a part of the disease as my gambling.

Thanks Murray

Cheers guys, your views are much appreciated and will be taken on board, I asked the question because my wife likes to do it and suppose that means we both do it! I'm a bit frustrated at the moment, what portrays gambling, does that mean I can't have a go on the meat raffle after football today, which I always gave done, you see, my nemisis are fobt's and feel I can control other aspects!

Please help

Jonny

Hi again Jonny,

Like I said before, there are no rules.

I can tell you that I personally have stopped ALL forms of gambling that involve a monetary return. I.e. Fruit machines, casinos, bookies, lottery, scratch cards, etc... This is becasue even though i was fine on many forms of gambling before I gave up my main vices, Since stopping I have found I have less control over them. Guess my brain is just trying to get the fix any where it can.

I have stopped a few NON monetary types of gambling that I found myself struggling with. I.e those stupid grabber machines and the games with blocks of light you sometimes find in pubs where you can win psp's etc... I found these detrimental to my recovery and found myself getting compulsive with them.

I still have a go on the occational raffle, as generally they are for a good cause, still have the odd "bet" for a pint amongst mates, and still play the odd fair ground game, as I don't see these things as a threat to my recovery. However, If I ever see signs that any of these are starting to bring out the compulsiveness in me, they will also get added to the banned list that I keep in my head.

You see... what I am trying to say is that it is your recovery, and your rules. If you don't see something as a threat, then it is your choice if you give it a go.

The only time you are ever cheating is when you start cheating or lying to your self.

I would suggest that it is unlikely that you were to get comuplsive on a meat raffle. However, as long as you look out for the warning signs you would be fine. If this week you got 10 tickets, and found your self upset at not winning. Then next week decided to up your "stake" and get say, 15 tickets... then I would suggest that this is a warning sign. This would count as chasing in a strange way.

MY recovery has been a constantly evolving entity. It started out with me not playing certain things. As time has gone on, the list of things that I have banned myself from has increased as and when I have seen them become a threat to me. That's not to say I will always keep them banned. In the future I may have another little go at the less threatening ones to see what happens. There are certain things I will NEVER touch again, and others that may be ok. I don't know yet. But my recovery will continue to evolve in both what I will and wont do, and how I approach it till the day I die.

I'm not trying to say you should do the meat raffle or the lottery, or either that you shouldn't.

What I am trying to say is that NO ONE on here has the right to tell you what to do for YOUR recovery. YOU make the rules. This forum is for people trying to overcome gambling problems. Not for people trying to abstain from all forms of gambling. The diffeence being, that there are many methods that work for different people when trying to over come this. Abstaining from ALL forms of gambling is just one of those.

SA

Further to my last, and in answer to what is perceived as gamblng.

Well would say that ANYTHING that involves a "stake" that COULD result in a return that is of higher value can be perceived as gambling.

The "stake" being what you are willing to loose in the persuit of the prize.

The lottery, you "stake" your £ for the potential return of between £10 and £Millions.

A raffle you "stake" your £ for the potential return of items to a higher value than your £.

The stock market you "stake" an investment for the potential higher return.

Asking someone out for a date you "stake" a sense of rejection for the potential return of finding love.

There are many levels of gambling that are involved in every day life.

It is upto you where you draw the line as to what you deem as acceptable. It would be nearly impossible to cut ALL gambling out of your life.

SA

"It would be nearly impossible to cut ALL gambling out of your life."

I understand the premise, but I have to disagree with that, and here's my viewpoint if I may. I believe it is possible, definitely possible as well as necessary to cut all gambling from our lives. That being said, there is a difference between gambling and risk taking, and I think that is where sometimes the concepts get misconstrued because, yes, it is impossible to remove all risk from our lives.

For example we could slip and fall in the bathtub, get bit by a disease carrying insect when outside, or get in a traffic accident. I don't think recovery is intended to have us never bathe, never go outside, or never drive a car.

To keep this post short, in my recovery viewpoint, when we separate our common sense thought from the addiction, we know and understand what is gambling and what isn't. For us addicts, that isn't always easy to do because the addiction wants to stay alive and it wants to be fed as much as possible.

When we are struggling to recover from this addiction and delete gambling from our lives, the addiction will use any means necessary in order to achieve its objectives. A few ways it cleverly does this is to try to convince us that something which is obviously gambling, isn't gambling...or try to convince us that something that can be extremely harmful to us like the next bet or a small bet, isn't harmful at all or isn't detrimental to a successful recovery.

Be careful...this addiction is very cunning, and very tough. Perhaps the addiction is never cured, but there's no doubt it can be arrested, and today, one day at a time, my addiction is locked up in jail.

YFIR,

Steve

Stephen,

I'm not going to get massively bogged down in what can and cannot be seen as gambling.

I will say that risk is a massive element of gambling. The only thing that seperates what would normally be deemed as gambling from matters of every day life such as those you have mentioned, is that in gambling we replace the work risk with stake. But they amount to the same thing.

I would have to say though that the examples you gave do not seem to follow the simple definition that I gave, that being, that the prize has to be of a higher value than original.stake.

But I do take your point. What I was trying to do was show the original poster that there are many different levels of gambling, and that only he could decide at which level he decided he wanted to abstain. If indeed that is what he wanted to do. Don't forget, that although complete abstinence is what most people choose to do on here (with the conventional view of gambling) it is not the only answer, and each member must make the decision for himself.

And before you ask, yes, I have abstained from all monetary forms of gambling for 6 months now. However, I personally do not see any harm in participating in some other forms of gambling, such as the odd raffle. Of course I only ever do this with my eyes wide open, and looking out for any signs of compulsive behaviour setting in. This is what works for me, but understandably may not for others. You may disagree.with it, and not risk it yourself. But that's my point. That is the level you may have chosen for your recovery. We are all.different.

Take care,

SA

SA - Point understood.

I think we can boil this down to what is really necessary and important and vital to our lives...and what isn't. The few examples I gave to illustrate that point are basically necessary and important and vital to our lives. Even if ya live in a city and don't need a car, mostly everyone uses some form of transportation in which there are possible risks involved with an accident. There are countless other examples as well of everyday and normal risks we incur in our lives.

However...in no way, shape or form is gambling necessary or important or vital to our lives. Participating in a raffle, playing the lottery, walking into a bookie joint, casinos, etc, etc, forms of gambling simply are not necessary or important or vital to our lives. I think my point on this is clear and I don't wish to belabor it, just wanted to clarify it.

I understand the desire for entertainment in our lives...but gambling for us is harmful and destructive "entertainment" and frankly from what I've observed over many years, it's the same for those even if they don't want to admit they are addicted gamblers and may never post or lurk on GamCare. They are content the way they are, usually broke and desperate, and have no desire to change. Perhaps living this way makes them feel more alive, than living a gamble free, comfortable life, and having a nestegg in their bank account. So perhaps they may never stop gambling...and that's the way I used to be before starting recovery and staying in recovery.

To sum up - it's our choice. For me, I believe the right choice, the smart choice, and the necessary choice is staying in recovery without any gambling in my life.

YFIR,

Steve

One final point if I may to clarify my clarification. LOL

Some may view my point as two extremes...but it is not and here's why...and is why I believe "responsible gambling" should never be condoned for an addicted gambler.

This is because if winning that raffle, if winning that lottery, or if winning at any form of gambling, will actually makes the addiction worse, and usually much worse...and the chances are basically certain that an addicted gambler will windup worse off after a gambling win, than if they would have never won the money in the first place.

There are a number of stories out there of those who won a huge lottery jackpot, and lost it back gambling or squandered the money in other ways...and when interviewed they basically say that they wished that they would have never won the money, because their lives turned out worse.

YFIR,

Steve

Feel like we've properly hijacked this thread now, but it is an interesting subject.

Taking aside all the trivial stuff in life and as to whether it is gambling in a sense or not (dont think we're ever going to agree on this. And its not really important anyway)

The things we both agree are gambling, I.e. lottery, casinos, raffles etc...

I could not agree with you more. They are not necessary and on the whole I would also agree. Damaging to CG's.

However, I think there is a massive difference between playing the lottery, and the potential prizes, and the Sunday afternoon meat raffle at your local.

Although I agree they are both gambling, for me personally I will not play the lottery, as it falls under monetary gambling which is a massive no no to me, and I am aware of the potential downfall, should by some miracle I win.

The meat raffle on the other hand... Well... It's meat! Lol

Actually this is a bad example as I probably wouldn't play a meat raffle because it is completely selfish, and is all about winning something you would normally pay more for.

A cheap charity raffle on the other hand I might. The prizes are normally naff, have cost the organisers nothing and will more than likely just be re-donated to the next raffle.

It's more about the giving to charity than the prize... But a little bit of entertainment thrown in with the anticipation of who's going to win the worst prize. I personally do not see the harm in this, but can totally see your point, and why you may choose just to give the money to charity straight as apposed to participate.

I totally respect your opinion, but still stand by the fact that it up to each individual recoveree as to what they chose to do. There is no one size fits all solution to a gambling problem.

SA

"Is it cheating to play the lottery?"

SA - I think we stayed on topic. The way I took the OP's opening remark to mean is are we cheating on recovery, since this forum does focus on recovery to a good extent. So I think I've explained why I believe we would be "cheating" on recovery if we played the lottery.

You made your points as well...very interesting points...and overall I think the bottom line is let's face it...we can post until we're blue in the face with good ideas one way or the other, and likely most addicted gamblers are gonna do whatever they wanna do anyway until they finally develop for themselves that "lightbulb moment" when they fully comprehend their situation and begin to do something about the problem.

That being said...my viewpoint is if we can help just one person out there, to stick a bug in their ear so to speak, to realize what this addiction is really all about, and from that information they gain a better perspective on recovery and then hopefully decide to work to attain a successful recovery, then I feel it is all worth it.

YFIR,

Steve

I think we pretty much agree where it counts.

And that last paragraph is exactly why I love this forum.

SA

Wow! What an interesting conversation! Shame I'm 7 years too late!