Lying

@Louis - I will ignore the slight against me for now and just ask one question - is santa claus real? 😉

I would consider myself a fairly honest person when it comes to opinion, especially subjective opinion like size & taste & the question of whether I'm "on the spectrum?" has often raised it's head. This is coupled with what could be termed a disgust of personal contact so it's not an unreasonable question to come to mind but I digress. Consequently, people who ask for my opinion expect honesty & come prepared for controversy. Equally, I don't tend to get too many people fishing for compliments...Apparently "no fatter than you always look" is social suicide. Whilst more than willing to provide an, uncomfortable to some, degree of honesty, there is a time & a place for it & crouching down @ the end of a finish line with a sobbing child who could have tried harder, doesn't require the same level of honesty as someone who needs to lose a few pounds or twenty.

I also like a bit of poetic licence when I'm holding stage although I guess then I do mention that I may have 'flowered' it up a little.

My biggest whoppers have most certainly been about gambling & the worse ones have been to myself (not accepting I had a problem)...Is omitting to tell people a lie? I think so, especially close friends who are completely oblivious. I couldn't live in a world with total honesty but I would dearly love everyone around me to tell nothing but truths.

It's a great topic...I will watch your link when I have some peace & quiet!

The biggest lies are to ourselves though cardhue. Our own minds can lie to us and thats what creates any addiction.

My mind was and is full of contradictions. I have a vanity and a shyness that was destroying me. Perhaps gambling is just a symptom of that cry for help. I have been vain which keeps me away from people but at the same time desperately lonely. My mind will come up with something like women are only trouble anyway

I lose myself in a world of falsehoods. I was prone to snobbish thoughts even whilst on the dole. How does that work?..... because when on the dole it really is time to wake up and smell the coffee. I live in a world of pretence that Im better than I am. I needed to face things and realise I had to start training from the bottom and achieve something

I think the issue of little white lies is just a sideline. I tried being honest once and the room went silent because nobody wanted it...back to the banter...... lesson learnt.......neuron path formed 🙂

A gambling addiction is a form of split mind personality. I couldnt even be honest with myself and thats my main issue. Every act of gambling is a lie and a deception. Part of my mind was looking for a soothing fix which was actually destroying me.

The addiction leads on to some heavy lies when people start the deception and stealing. Its only a matter of time before gambling takes us lower than we would ever have believed.

So although its a very interesting topic, I dont think little white lies are even on the radar here. What people need to understand is the power of our own minds to deceive us. My mind created a world of its own and thats why I feel I was always prone to compulsive gambling on machines.

Best wishes to everyone on the forum

To lie is to be human. I have seen many a man/woman drive themselves backwards rather than forwards through the pursuit of perfection. Isnt addiction intrinsically linked to our desire for a flawless existance? Where we are blameless & righteous.
Recovery is to be at one with oneself, warts & all.

JD - I see your point, that we could outwardly seem honest yet internally be quite the opposite. But there's a correlation between external lying and inner confusion. Surely inner confusion is a breeding ground for addiction?

This might be a good time to say I'm not currently seeing this as a major tool to STOP gambling - more a move towards general self-improvement. It also goes without saying that you can be truthful but be severely lacking in 1001 other ways.

ps. I really relate to your description above of contradictions.

Dan - I don't see this as a perfectionism issue - any more than someone who seeks to stop gambling is a perfectionist. It's more a choice of where you want to position yourself on a spectrum of behaviours. If you don't have a position, then you're kind of at the whim how you feel on any given day. Will I lie today, won't I lie - who knows, spin the wheel.

I don't get the sense that someone like Sam Harris (please do read) had an ulterior motive of seeking righteousness. When I first contemplated stopping gambling - I thought 'yes OK but it seems way to much 'give''. Then the longer you remain gamble free, the more you realise there's no loss at all but just liberation. Lying is a habit which serves a very shortsighted gain.

A white lie is something that you shouldn't gain from otherwise it's just a regular lie . White lies are often told when being polite

If you're partner said do I look fat in this and you replied yes you do that would be a pretty douche move. Flipped round and you say to your partner after s*x how was that for you and their reply it was the worst s*x we've had I'd imagine you be pretty low?

If you only used 100 percent honesty you'd become pretty unpopular extremely fast. Where white lies are used I.e. Am I fat they already know the answer but hearing someone say no gives them a confidence they can't find themselves. I think if you were to be honest john your opinion would be asked less and less on fears of hearing the truths

But one of the points is that a white lie is only 'white' in the eyes of the person lying. I think if we honestly consider when we white lie, often it's about avoiding a feeling of personal social awkwardness. We want an 'easy life'.

So we justify a white lie so as not to hurt the other, but it's actually for personal gain.

I'm not so sure that when someone directly asks another their opinion on a matter, even if it's about whether they suit certain clothes/look fat, that they do want false reassurance.

It's easy to come up with examples which involve brutal answers, eg, 'worst s*x ever'. But this is where you have be tactful and really try not to unduly hurt feelings - and saying that was the 'worst s*x ever' is clearly unecessary. I'm not suggesting being completely candid - but don't deliberately mislead where an honest answer is expected.

In any event, if the s*x was that bad then presumably the 'session' would awkwardly stop early anyway! And it's gona be hard to pretend it was great. But I digress....

I'm also not sure that 'not lying' would make you unpopular fast. Don't we all know someone that we admire due to their honesty and integrity? Again, I'm not talking about people who are overly candid and offensive.

Striving for 100% honestly will not atone for your previous lack of honesty, nor will it make you someone to look up to or admire. A few too many honest opinions to a few too many people will achieve the opposite.

My previous point said tongue in cheek is still a legitimate point. Who are you to suggest to a young child that magic isn't real, or that santa isn't real? Sometimes the truth isn't as fun as the lie, sometimes the truth is far more destructive than the lie.

I have to dispute the point about personal gain with my little white lies. Its not really gain on any scale of pleasure measurement

Its really to maintain the status quo and not rock the boat. If anything I feel its to my detriment....Ive eaten the iffy lasagne but kept my friend happy by not criticising his mothers cooking... I may have to face that lasagne again but am more ready with the excuses of how to avoid going :)...they are loaded questions because if everyone else appears to be ok with the food Im really going to be the odd one out....I use my judgement there of how others are reacting to a given situation.

The look fat in the outfit lie can only backfire so I dont see the personal gain other than maintaining calm in the moment. It will probably come back to haunt me because its a loaded question. If she later gets a second opinion Im going to be on the spot

If I say my car is fine to the office bully it calms the situation. Ive still got to return to a clapped out car but it doesnt give people immediate ammunition to brag or have a go. I feel a bit cheesed off that Ive had to lie but then I shouldnt have to deal with mickey taking bullies.

So as said above the white lies have to be defined as no real gain and other lies for real devious gain

I think I choose my white lies carefully and Im very tactful. I was round with my parents yesterday and they dont really want to hear how I feel about work or the lack of it.....I see how this breeds lying because others dont really want to deal with the truth

Take the how are you line.......If I say oh not very good actually and list off the problems...very few if anybody ready to deal with that . They actually dont want to hear the real answer so everybody goes into the not so bad, getting by or could be worse style of banter.

I agree that when the lies get serious it is for personal gain mainly through fear. When hundreds in debt I did not want to tell people the reason for that. Honestly its because I did not want the gambling avenue shut down and I wanted more cash with as little fuss as possible If I had said I gamble money away It would have ruined that line of ill thought

I wasnt ready to stop at that stage so I didnt tell anyone. When I was ready to stop it was vital I told people to shut down that avenue of income because they needed to be involved in and aware of a full recovery procedure.

So I see what you are getting at but even that iffy film highlighted that we couldnt cope in a totally honest world

JD - I would say that some of your examples above, eg 'not rocking the boat' and 'not looking the odd one out' - I do see these as personal gain - in the sense of being for your personal benefit. White lies are usually about justifiying a lie as benefitting the person being lied to.

I think your point about your parents is about being candid - like I said you don't have to volunteer info you're not happy with. That's not lying.

The 'how are you' point - well that's a social convention, pretty much like saying hello. When asked by a mere acquaintance in a passing manner - there's no expectation of an in-depth response (thus no expectation of honesty). Obviously if a close friend asks you with genuine concern - that's a different matter.

The Santa point is maybe the toughest yet. It's tempting to get round this by saying there are different rules for children. But that's certainly wrong. It's hypocritical to lie to children and then get angry with children when they start telling lies. There's also surely a CORRELATION between lying to children and them lying.

..and so to Santa. If, one day, my boy starts finding it odd that this fat bearded man, who drinks Coca-Cola, seems to be capable of denying the laws of physics by being in multiple places at the same time, then I'm going to tell the truth. I hardly think this is going to destroy his Christmas (and at this moment, I picture my vocal detractors on here stabbing voodoo dolls of me for uttering this heresy). Even before my new stance, I always found it slightly odd how people get hysterically excited about lying to their children about Santa. Some kids are genuinely upset when they realise it's a massive lie which their parents have delighted in telling them.

Where do you draw the line? Lie about Santa and pretend fairies are real? What about Dragons? Harry Potter is actually a documentary programme.

Just to throw another spanner in the works it could be argued that anyone following a religion is living a lie depending on your inclination.

Personally I think you should do what you think is right. We are human so will no doubt make mistakes, the right thing to do is learn from those mistakes. If I lie because it will save someone's feelings how can anyone say that's wrong - we don't live in a black and white world where the same approach fixes all issues.

ItMattersMoreWhenTheresNoMoneyOnIt wrote: Just to throw another spanner in the works it could be argued that anyone following a religion is living a lie depending on your inclination. Personally I think you should do what you think is right. We are human so will no doubt make mistakes, the right thing to do is learn from those mistakes. If I lie because it will save someone's feelings how can anyone say that's wrong - we don't live in a black and white world where the same approach fixes all issues.

Your point on religion is a separate issue. I presume most people are sincere in their belief about their religion. They're not lying. I don't believe in faith based religion and I would argue that science clearly shows it to be untrue - but that''s a different matter.

One of the terrifying things about jihadits is that they genuinely believe they will go to heaven if they murder 100 school children in Pakistan or run a lorry into a large group of people on London Bridge. In their view, these aren't actions from malice but a sincere belief that what they are doing will serve them, and the people they murder, in the after life. This is terrifying as they're basically not playing by the same basic rule book and have minimal regard for human life in this world. Understanding that these people have genuinely held moral belief, that they genuinely think they will go to paradise with 72 virgins etc - is quite hard for people in the West to get their heads around.

I'm really not trying to say that stopping lying is on it's own going to make you a good and fulfilled person - and I fully agree with you that we should try our best and learn from our mistakes. Jihadists ARE acting sincerely according to their deeply held faith. The jihadist sincerely believes in his religion - he must do to sacrafice his own life. But he is a deeply misguided and abhorent person.

Or put more simply, you can 'not lie' and be a complete *&se.

But I do think not lying is a useful tool for self-improvement

Hi Cardhue

I've just read your post about experiential avoidance on another thread; a really interesting read, thank you.

HI Cardhue,

Thank you for your thoughtful post on the Guru Challenge; I very much enjoyed crafting a likewise sincere, respectful reply to you on that thread. I wish you all the best,

Kind regards,

Mixer