Removing FOBT's from betting shops

Adam - Please, please do not patronise us - or at least not me - by quoting stats about roulette gambling that are simply taken from a survey, when on here, your very own forum, there is so much evidence of actual and real utter misery and devastation caused by roulette to many many people.

Do whatever you do to help people - great - long may it continue, but please dont treat cg's like fools.

James

Hi Adam

This is an interesting thread and it's good to get some ' edge ' in the dialogue between us, the customer, and you the staff.

I have to agree with most of the other posters on this thread and must disagree with your simplistic statement. I think you have fallen into the trap of lies, d**n lies and statistics on this one.

Horses, dogs, bingo, lottery betting and fruit machines have been available much longer than FOBT betting, and, if you take that into account, the percentage of problem gamblers playing FOBT's is far, far higher. The sheer speed and addictive nature of electronic roulette is what makes it so lethal.

I would guess that had an additional question been asked of those who use FOBT's: " How long were you gambling on these machines before you felt you had a problem ? ", and, if the figures were adjusted accordingly, then the percentages would look very different indeed.

Blackjack

This is an interesting topic from both sides , what i would like to ask is ....

A very high percentage of callers to both the helpline and netline are users of fobts, fruit machines and roulette machines, do you ask callers to be more specific when discussing their particular gambling activities?

Most people do refer to fobts as roulette machines so your stats may be a tad skewed?

When your figures have been collated , what happens next?

You discuss the rise and falls with ?

Kim and blackjack,

The stats I quoted came from The British Gambling Prevalence Survey 2010:

"The BGPS was conducted by the National Centre for Social Research, in collaboration with gambling experts Dr Rachel Volberg, Professor Mark Griffiths and Professor Jim Orford".

The Gambling Commission are currently "Undertaking a comprehensive review of the way in which we gather adult gambling prevalence data, and are seeking stakeholder views on a range of options for future data gathering".

You can read more about the survey here:

http://www.gamblingcommission…/research/bgps/bgps_2010.aspx

James I do know about the distress experienced by people with problem gambling, and that's why I'm keen to direct people's efforts in directions that I think will prove most beneficial for them.

Let's see if I can explain where I'm coming from a bit better.

I know that it can be challenging to accept responsibility for our own actions. It can be so tempting to lay the blame elsewhere. I believe though that accepting responsibility for our own behaviour can help us to feel more empowered. If we see other agents as responsible for our behaviour, then we can end up seeing ourselves as helpless pawns without control. It is much more helpful to us if we see ourselves as having power and control over our own actions. If we are choosing to do the problem behaviour, then we can choose to do another behaviour that is better for us.

Of course, sometimes it can be tricky to exercise self-control. It isn't always easy to control the way we respond to our impulses, but it is possible to learn new skills and to improve our self-management with practice and support. GamCare counsellors can provide regular support to help you to achieve your goals.

I don't think it is so productive to obsess about the machine, as we can't learn to control the machine, but we can learn to control our own behaviour. Raging against the machine is understandable, but it doesn't achieve anything if we choose to continue to feed the machine. We need to use our anger to energise our motivation to change our own behaviour. The real problem is our pattern of behaviour, not the machine. We are "Doing the do", and we can learn to do something different. For example if you are angry about losing on the machines, use that anger to motivate yourself to self-exclude, or to rearrange your finances so you don't carry money to gamble with, or to book a counselling appointment, and so on. Make the change that you can make today.

About changing the world, I think it was Ghandi who said "Be the change you want to see in the world". We are all 'A work in progress', GamCare staff included. GamCare staff have a helping role, and we also use professional support for ourselves, in the form of clinical supervision, to help us keep learning.

You can use GamCare's counsellor's too if you are struggling with the process of change. We are here to help you make the changes in your behaviour that you want to see happen.

Take care,

Adam.

Come on Adam just admit the figures are a load of industy twaddle, designed to make the FOBT look at least harmful as possible.

I accept my actions are my responsibility, always have.

But if you accept those figures as truth then publish them on the gamcare website you end up looking like an industry spokes person.

Hi Adam

Please could you read my post again, i was not refering to the prev study but to gamcares own services report 2010.

Many thanks.

I would say that the majority of people that play these machines develop problems and quickly, if it really is only a small percentage of people that play these machines how come they generate so much cash?????

Adam - thank you for taking the time to make a considered reply to the posters on this thread.

What's quite distressing about your reply is that you are automatically assuming that when someone moans about the fobt's or online bingo or roulette or whatever (adverts and so on) they are somehow not taking responsibility for their actions. I had a moan about how you had presented the stats - a genuine reaction - to what seemed a ridiculous thing to say about roulette gambling - and you came back at me about my problem - I know my problem, I carry it around with me everywhere; I was simply making an observation on your comments about roulette - it's a forum Adam, people, even cg's can have a voice - and on this very forum there are numerous examples of people getting into horrendous trouble with roulette - and you appeared to be dismissing it as small fry. I'm a cg Adam, gambling has had a terrible effect on my family, friends and me - I take full responsibility - really - fobt's and online roulette took me over the edge into a darkness that is hard to describe - I did it, my choice - whatever my state of mind - but I still have a voice, I can still be concerned about how the industry is working overtime to draw more and more people into this misery - one simple fact - fobt's (the way they are designed) make a profit from cg's, if there were no cg's those machines (in that form) would not exist - you appear to be in the business of trying to help pick up the pieces rather than any attempt at prevention. DOES IT NOT IN ANY WAY CONCERN YOU THAT THE INDUSTRY HAS MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO WALK INTO A SHOP ON ANY HIGH STREET IN THE LAND AND IN A MATTER OF HOURS LOSE THEIR LIFE SAVINGS, THEIR HOUSE -EVERYTHING - AND THAT IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN OVERSTATEMENT. IS IT SIMPLY ENOUGH TO SAY "WELL IT'S YOUR CHOICE".

James

"FOR SOMEONE TO WALK INTO A SHOP ON ANY HIGH STREET IN THE LAND AND IN A MATTER OF HOURS LOSE THEIR LIFE SAVINGS, THEIR HOUSE -EVERYTHING"

I absolutely echo this statement. And the number of those places to choose from in a large city is ridiculous. FOBTs are a serious problem in this country and they are causing nothing but misery.

From what I thought was going to be a bit of a joke thread about literally breaking into a bookies and stealing the machines, this has been the most interesting thread I've seen in ages. Now I'm not going to take sides, but will say that statistics and figures will never demonstrate the devastation that gambling causes, and I'm sure Adam knows that if he's ever come face to face with a cg who has been broken by fobts.

I totally agree with what Gettingthere says about numerus bookies in large cities. I live in such a city and we have a plaza where there are 6 bookmakers and an amusement arcade. Imagine how many people's lives are ruined every day in this one location.

Hi Adam

Thanks for your detailed last reply to posters on this thread, including myself. I do appreciate that in working for an organisation funded by bookies you do have to answer awkward questions with ' one arm tied behind your back '. I suspect there are many occasions when you have to adopt a ' fence sitting ' stance publicly when you think the complete opposite privately.

You mentioned on this thread that you know what it's like to be affected by problem gambling. Whether or not that was due to your own actions - I believe some Gamcare staff are cg's - you would be more aware than most of the damage that can be caused. Whatever ' broad brush ' stance Gamcare might take it's pretty indisputable that FOBT's have ruined more lives more quickly than any other form of High St gambling in history.

These machines are a massive, massive problem, and, although through no fault of your own you are forced to hiding behind statistics, I think you know this to be true.

Blackjack

Hello everyone,

You have all made interesting points and I do respect that you have strong feelings on these issues, borne out of painful personal experiences.

Tom, I accept that you are sceptical about the findings of the British Gambling Prevalence Survey 2010. The research was carried out by a highly reputable organisation called NatCen (National Centre for Social Research), described as Britain's leading independent social research institute. They are transparent about the the way they collected the data, and all of the raw data is published online so that it can be scrutinised, analysed and criticised by independent researchers and academics, and you too if you want to have a look. You are entitled to your opinion. Here is their website:

http://www.natcen.ac.uk/serie…h-gambling-prevalence-survey-

Kim I appreciate that you have significant personal and professional experience in relation to these issues and you care deeply about the matters at hand. You make some good points. As someone who is familiar with the industry, you will also know that a lot of the growth is happening in online gambling. I understand that you have already discussed the GamCare stats with Eileen, our marketing director. If you'd like more detail I'd encourage you to email our media and communications officer James, at @gamcare.org.uk">james.mclarin@gamcare.org.uk. Our clinical services director has emphasised the importance of data collection so you can expect our stats to become ever more clear and detailed.

James I'm sorry to read about the devastation you and your family have experienced as a result of problem gambling. Although GamCare do have staff that work in the area of education and prevention, the forum operates more in the area of treatment. Part of the role of the moderators is to keep the focus on recovery, helping members to harness their passionate feelings constructively, to enhance their motivation for behavioural change, which is the quickest and most effective route to improving their situation.

Anyone who has posted on this thread or who has read it, who wants to talk it over, please call us on 0845 6000 133, or talk to us on the Netline

http://secure.gamcare.org.uk/netline/

We also provide face-to-face counselling if you would like the ongoing 1-2-1 support of a dedicated professional therapist.

GamCare is an independent charity and we exist to support you. We will give you space to express your feelings, and when you feel ready we will support you in taking your next step in progressing with your recovery.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, I hope you can take something good from it.

Take care,

Adam.

Adam,

Why dont you just acctually answer Kims question?

Think ive just about had enough of this thread now, we all know the truth including Adam he just cant admit it. Now thats a familuar feeling knowing the truth but not admiting it.....................

FOBT are leathal look at the new members forum.

But sssssshhhhhhh its a secret.

The problem with statistics is they can be manipulated in so many ways. So it is perfectly reasonable to believe the stats Adam posts. BUT the main difference is the speed with with they get people addicted and the rate they can take you money. For me FOBTS are by far the worst for this. Its possible more people are addicted to horse racing, dog racing or footy accys but they cannot take money at the same rate as fobts. FOBTs are lethal and can turn a persons life upside down within days.

Wow! Normally only read diaries but came across this thread while browsing and thought I'd read through it.

Have to agree with the majority here - as ex occassional backer of horses on a Saturday, curiosity got the better of me and stuck 'couple of quid' in FOBT for the hell of it - few months later, HOOKED, several thousand gone! They're not known as the c***k C*****e of gambling for nothing! Yes, we're all responsible for our own actions at the end of the day but the advertising/marketing of these evil machines is pulling in more and more people and catching them younger and younger all the time - what hope for the next generation???

The damage done to cg's, and the friends and relatives who are also affected, is readily dismissed by some with an appeal to notions of free will and individual choice. It was their choice to gamble; their problem is their choosing. The same logic gets the gambling industry off the hook: the casinos, betting shops and gambling sites are simply responding to consumer demand.

People "demand" the opportunity to gamble away money they do not have, just like people "demand" money from loan sharks at extortionate interest rates. This is a warped, empty type of freedom, in which the powerful are free to exploit the vulnerable. Unless we establish some speed limits on the road, we are only going to need more and more ambulances.