Lying

Hi Louis lying covers many things. The question do I look fat? In this dress is an aside. Does the dress suit them or not. Are they fat, they know the answer. Who ate ....? Is the normal question in our house. It seems since not gambling, eating is a common pastime. For some unknown reason my cg lies. Why? I think it's just another compulsion, can't be honest. But lying also involves hiding. Hiding from the truth, reality, someone's pain, anger. Lying is too simplistic. I try not to lie, I'm painfully honest most times to my detriment. But do you know, I don't care, I sleep because my conscience is clear, I don't sleep when I worry. I do hide money if I can. It's not healthy for my cg to know, if he thinks it's there he wants to spend it. So is that lying? Is that protecting me and the children for a future we certainly wouldn't have if he got his hands on it? One thing is for sure I hate lying, especially when it is to deceive another to their detriment.

Hi MRG

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that limiting this to 'not lying' is a bit too black and white. Certain types of deception can be more hurtful than actual untruths. Some addicts rely on the technicality that they 'weren't asked' if they were gambling - which is clearly a nonesense.

I also agree that lying becomes a compulsion - especially for addicts but to a lesser extent for anyone.

I used the 'do I look fat in this' example as it's a classic example which might elicit a white lie and which most people have probably experienced. It's slightly different from the question 'am I fat' - although this is certainly another question which it would be wrong to give clearly false reassurance on.

White lies are the more contentious aspect of lying. I think most non-addict will agree that an argument for lying about gambling or cheating is not in any way a sustainable one. Many will also recognise that lying to make yourself look good is also wrong.

I would strongly urge anyone interested in this subject to read this really interesting essay by Sam Harris:

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-x4ByD3mMjIdTMC0H/Sam%20Harris%20Lying%20%281%29#page/n0/mode/2up

He describes lying as 'to intentionally mislead others when they expect honest communication'.

You hiding money I don't see as lying. Your truth is 'I am not prepared to let you steal the money'. But that's a good example - I would imagine it's important to make your OH aware that money is set aside but that he/she cannot be trusted with it. This would be different from simply pretending there is no money anywhere - which I can see as having more negative consequences: the former makes the addict aware of consequences whereas the latter is less clear.

I'm interested to here you say that your honesty is to your detriment. Do you really mean that and can you elaborate? The kind of situations in which you might consider lying are generally messy ones regardless. If you really think you would have less detriment if you lied - why don't you lie?

Louis

Hi Very interesting...a world without lies like in that film.

Im conflicted by this because I realise that I have always told white lies mainly as a means of escape from the human interactions since childhood.

I also have a very honest streak but found that this was never appreciated in a world of peer pressure and lies. On numerous occasions my honesty made them feel uncomfortable and they couldnt handle it.

I think the lies starts off with trying to get some idea of your standing in the world and making some sense of it all. When the head of a peer group asks something its often easier to say oh yes my dad has this and we are very comfortable thanks. Its often easier to escape into a world of lies that you dont think will be questioned.

The old chestnut that nobody wants to admit to being a virgin when it gets banded about at a certain age 🙂

My early days in work didnt really teach me to be honest as I had to survive the office politics. People can be brutal when we are all forced together like that. I used white lies to big myself up and Ive always done that really. Oh yes "cars running fine" even though it was a clapped out heap. Had an accident once and didnt really want to discuss it at work so lies help play it down. I dont really see how the white lies harm anyone but myself if I was found out

I dont think the dress example is a good one though because its an unfair and leading question...for example I might like the way my wife looks in any dress and I dont want the issue raised that I might be calling her fat or downing her choice of dress. If the dress is reasonable I dont care so I will go with the flow of what I think wants to be heard. Do we really need an issue of me effectively calling a partner a bit fat before we go out for the evening? I will be honest when I feel its appropriate in that situation. I expect honesty when I ask but I try not to ask a leading question...I will just say is this any good or does it fit me...Im well aware of my body issues that I wouldnt put somebody else on the line. Im honest with my few friends because they know me fairly well

I escape mainly beacause I have esteem issues and dont much like the world when in a certain mindframe. Gambling played right into that escape mode and yes the lies became horrendous.

There is a big difference between the major gambling lies and the smaller white lies. Who is telling more porkies...me or the gambling dens?

Im entirely honest on here but I dont feel there is a world out there that appreciates my honesty in every situation

Best wishes to everyone on the forum

I think Louis has made some good points generally about lying but could I honestly say in my heart that I would have told my wife everything if I didn't have a little bit of certainty about her reaction (I DID tell her everything and her reaction was obviously horrified about what I done) and our marriage when I initially stopped gambling?

It's not a question I can easily answer but I know 18 months since my last bet I tell my wife everything - how many pints I've had (she hardly drinks), how many rollies (she stopped smoking before we got married) and fundamentally have I gambled.

She is still sometimes suspicious of me and rightly so.

I think the odd white lie is nothing to be ashamed of though - we're not saints. Regardless of being recovering addicts from one poison or another?

Best wishes, Phil.

Thanks JD. I too have a sense that I used to be more truthful but at some point started taking the easier way out. In my case I can see this as linked to people pleasing and a need for validation - something which ironically pushed me towards gambling and away from healthy social interactions.

It seems that the 'do I look fat in this' example isn't well received here. I don't really see why - I'm talking about a situation where a partner is asking for an opinion on whether an outfit makes him/her look fat. I think people do actually want an honest answer in that scenario (I guess the implication is more or less fat than normal).

But it could be anything. Is my lasagne nice? What are you doing on your laptop? What do you think of my painting?

I read about a study undertaken in which one group which would 'white lie' about their food to a waiter and another group would be truthful. The white lie group all gave far larger tips. This was due to the white lie group holding 2 contradictory beliefs (cognitive disonance) which is a form of mental discomfort.

So called 'lie detectors' don't actually measure 'lies', they measure stress. For the person telling the lie, lying is inherently stressful. Meanwhile the person being lied to is denied access to reality.

Hmm yes but is the denied access to reality harmful with a little white lie? The bully doesnt really need to know all about me and people at work dont need to know all the ins and outs of my life. My new partner doesnt need to know all about the history of my love life. Are we really going to call a friends mums lasagne awful?....No we are going to shovel it down or make some other white lie to excuse us

The world is full of trickery and it taught me to lie. In my early days I found I would be laughed at if I didnt lie so that forms neuron paths. Thats not my fault...its a general problem caused by many insecure human beings...you know the score..Everyone is supposed to have hundreds of friends and be super popular and rich. I quite enjoyed being me but it didnt seem to sit well with other people so I lied to conform

There is a risk of being shown up and I have been caught out a few times. Thats usually because somebody has being trying to have a good go at me and generally snooping

The do I look fat in this is still a leading question and already shows some insecurity. It should spark some sort of discusion about how a person feels about their body.There is often no right answer to that question at the time because its not really asked with a right answer in mind

A large part of my previous gambling is that I dont have healthy relationships with enough people. I feel people taught me to lie. Ive been bullied in my time and though all of that I seek more escape.

I am fully aware of the factors that drove me to gamble. Now the lies associated with my gambling did hurt people and I was being fraudulent. Every time I said oh no worries but Im behind on my bills...money was given to me that I used to gamble with. My parents havent got money to waste and thats what I was doing with it.

So I still feel its the scale of the lie. A white lie could embarrass me but a heavy lie is deadly serious. Any lie will find you out given enough time. Thats why gambling secrecy is never the answer

I would rather not lie and I try not to. I dont lie about a gambling recovery as I realise how serious the addiction is and what a gambling addiction does to people.

Best wishes

OK lets forget the 'do I look fat issue' as it's clearly bringing up unintended side issues.

You and your housemate are both single. Your housemate's had a rough time recently and appears to be looking for a girlfriend. Good guy, but he's got a problem with bad breath. He asks you if you can think of a reason why he can't get a girl. Now you could tell him he's doing nothing wrong at all and simply provide reassurance and tell him his time will come etc. But this would in fact come at a major cost to his love life (bad breath activates deep revulsion which is not easily overcome with rational thoughts).

I'm not saying be totally candid about everything - no need to tell random work colleagues all about your insecurities or gambling past. Although there's cross over, there's still a difference between being totally candid with everyone about everything and not being truthful.

Lets assume the lasagna is in fact foul. If you say it's delicious you perpetuate the white lie and she keeps making these awful, time consuming lasagne which no one enjoys. Maybe she finds making the lasagna stressful but because everyone's lied about how delicious it is - she keeps on serving it up.

When she asks how it is - don't say it's awful. But don't say it's delicious either. You could perhaps tell her how grateful you are that she's taken time out of a busy day to prepare the dish for you - but that Italian food is wasted on you. Or something.

Then when she makes you the most delicious Sunday roast ever - and you tell her that it is the nicest roast you've had, she's more likely to value your judgement. And make it again.

Or role reversal. You're the one making the signature trifle pudding - it's hailed as a triumph. But then you overhear a friend and his partner having what they think is a private conversation - saying how disgusting the trifle is. The white lie's going to hurt pretty bad then?

I know these are randomly imagined scenarios - but I do think most lying comes at a cost.

Anyway, I'll see how I get on.....sure it'll take some attention to come out of autopilot lying

I'm interested to know unnecessary lying is normal for addicts? I'm not talking about lying to cover debts, but about silly things like seeing a car crash which required 6 police cars, 5 ambulances.....when in fact it was one of each....why?? My husband would lie to people and then I'd unwittingly drop him in it, but the lies were stupid. I never understood that.

'Goodbye my husband' - I think that's kind of my point here. As someone else above said, lying becomes habitual and you can even lose clarity in your mind about what's really happened. Maybe you lie about bigger stuff for what you mistakenly see as self-preservation - and then you've got into that mode of not communicating honestly and just carry on into inconsequential lying. Maybe your husband wanted your attention and so thought he would make a dull day seem more interesting?

Would not using your full name in an anonymous forum constitute lieing?

Lieing is acceptable in certain circumstances. It's a defence mechanism that is useful, but can obviously be destructive.

I suspect that someone attempting 100% honesty would be very unpopular.

Unfortunately I think that lying is part of human nature instilled in us from an early age. Even a 3 year old child learns very quickly that telling the truth about a naughty action or deed will often result in being shouted at, told off or even slapped. In a perfect world, with perfect parents a child would be reasured that no matter what has happened - there would be no repercussions - just lots of understanding and encouragement.

Ok, back to the real world... I agree that white lies can be used to protect ourselves, mainly because people and society are often both unforgiving and judgemental. However, even white lies will hurt us inside as our conscience will never truely agree to deceit.

As a gambler I must have lied a hundred times. I would have said anything to try to cover my tracks. I'm cringing right now thinking back to when I lied to my own Mother, saying how I had lost my wages in cash. I told her that it must have fallen out of my top pocket when really I had lost it in the bookies. I even reported it to the Police as lost... One lie often leads to another.

It has been suggested/reported that most couples hold secrets from each other, with up to 20% having secret personal bank accounts and 15% having secret affairs. I'm sure this is an issue that has escalated over the years, probably in line with equality. Women are now more independent than years ago. They are successful in their chosen careers whilst balancing a hectic lifestyle, family commitments, hobbies and social networks. And quite rightly so. But perhaps the trust, honour and respect between couples will forever be disparaged.

Or I could take it further in saying was lying to myself. I would say my whole life was a lie because I was bottling things up and I was deeply unhappy. That directly led to gambling and It led to first bout gambling in a sleepy Scottish village when I was about thirteen years old. I was bored empty and depressed then and looking back I realise it even more. It sort of scary to feel that it took me 37 years after that to abstain from gambling

Deep down Im a very honest person crying to express myself in a cynical world.

I think Im tactful with my white lies and its mainly a defensive mechanism.

Its not my place to criticise a friends mum because my relationship is with the friend and I am accepting the hospitality. I have enough experience to know a complaint would go down like a lead balloon and possibly ruin a friendship. I am simply being polite and i also know I eat there once in a blue moon. If others havent pointed it out, its not my place to do so. Too much else is on the line.

If it was my own mother and the family had burnt food every meal time of course we would say something if the consensus was there. Luckily my mother is an excellent cook.

I knew a guy that used to make up huge stories about living on the QE2 and all sorts of round the world stuff. Turned out it was all lies and that is a dangerous way to live. We all knew he was lying at the time, nobody particularly liked him...well a few liked his cheeky style but nobody said anything. Most of it was so far fetched that we just assumed he needed to express some importance in his empty life. Most of what he said was lies and thats a pretty ill way to go about things

Gambling is linked with all of this as many people like to feel more important than they are or live a dream...living a lie really. Have you heard the banter in the bookies...I find it so false.

I think we all have to keep a part of our lives private so i dont buy that every white lie is bad. I do it to protect peoples feelings and avoid telling nosey colleagues things they have no right to know.

When I gambled the heavy lies kick in as a survival mechaism. When I had nothing to live on I didnt obviously want to give the real reason...shamefully I looked for the easiest source of income and it was my parents. I should have been seeking help but I got some more money, thought I could use some willpower but usually ended up gambling it the same day.

There are three kinds of lies...Lies....Damned Lies....and Statistics 🙂

ItMattersMoreWhenTheresNoMoneyOnIt wrote: Would not using your full name in an anonymous forum constitute lieing? Lieing is acceptable in certain circumstances. It's a defence mechanism that is useful, but can obviously be destructive. I suspect that someone attempting 100% honesty would be very unpopular.

Given your previous record of arguing extensively in FAVOUR of lying to your partner about gambling addiction, ie 'big lying', naturally you will be in favour of less harmful forms of lying.

Why would not using your real name on an anonymous forum be lying? This shows quite confused thinking, perhaps because I've not made my case very clearly.

I know it's a big ask, but I would urge anyone vaguely interested to read (with an open mind) this quite inspirational article on lying, as I simply can't do it justice on here:

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-x4ByD3mMjIdTMC0H/Sam%20Harris%20Lying%20%281%29#page/n0/mode/2up

Is this discussion still going today? Some of this has made me laugh, bad breath always tell someone especially if you know them well, especially your kids. I don't think not telling people at work your business is lying. Lying is misleading, deceiving, hiding. I think, know, my cg came from a family of liars. Every member of his family has lied to me. Louis when I said to my detriment that is why. They don't like me because I know they lied. I question lying, why do you do that? Am I a fool? If a white lie is so harmless why tell it. Lying got a lot of us into a lot of debt. It's ruined many relationships. At the end of the day if I like that dress and I like what I see in the mirror, I don't care whether someone else does or not. I can taste onion on my breath. I can't lie, I haven't got a poker face, I laugh. But I have met some expert liars, I think it's learned behaviour.