Hi Glint,
No disrespect but if you're really interested in steps, best place to find out is GA/AA meetings вє. You can ask all the questions you want and am sure will get all the answers also.
Best wishes,
Hope all is well Dan, don't b a stranger!
B&S xx
Thank you Dan
All the best :))
For those who moan about the wording of the Steps. https://www.russellbrand.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/russell-brand-recovery-the-program.pdf
WARNING: Link contains swearing.
Thanks dan
I do admit that some times over the years your post have made me angry . That being said it says more about where I was at the time than it was about what you had written at that time. I must admit your posts are very insightful and many including me at times won’t see it until we get past that big brother telling us what we should be doing faze. If that makes sense?
Your diary shows the amount of hard work that’s needed to I won’t say overcome but learn to live in recovery. Still putting in all that work ten years on seems daunting to most likely everyone including me. So people get scared of that and the idea behind it. I remember a time I thought well in 100 days of no betting the world will be write and I’ll be cured and I can leave all this behind. Only has time goes on I’ve realised I can never have done enough to stay in recovery so I need to keep learning. I did pick up a book you mentioned a few years back by Gabor mate and I admit I got 3 pages in and thought this is way above my intellect to even begin to understand. It ain’t no beano lol I’m sure I’ll pick it back up at some point as I look further into addiction. Hopefully my post made some sense and thanks again for yours x
Slow to the party as usual but stopping by to drop a big shout out for post #952...If I did swear (I don't, of course, I'm a lady) that's how I would have written the 12 steps!
& I thought why not "ditto" the above...Maybe the 'sensitive' soul who wants people to go gently on him & yet is happy to call you a bully would do well to remember that, you too are a human being with feelings!
day@atime wrote: I thought i was being mindful by only posting my perspective on my diary. Not sure how my view is anymore provocative than anyone elses. Some of the greatest advice i have ever received has usually been met with the response that i want to beat the living daylights out of the person who gave it to me. Why? Because as an addict whose default setting is denial of anything that makes me feel uncomfortable, i hate being advised of doing anything that takes me out of my safe place.
Seems to fit well with your reaction when all serenity went out of the window as you violently opposed a doctor who agreed with your widely accepted 8% 12-step success rate but offered a different approach to help the other 92%.
My last visit to this thread Dan, you were found to be claiming false 'facts' regarding the 12-step program being the most effective addiction treatment; even going as far as to making up a vast and vague mythical assortment of "research scientists, addiction psychologists, medical institutions" who all apparently agreed with your 'facts'.
A multitude of options, not a solitary example given.
It was important to question this post as if there were any facts it would have been a significant breakthrough in addition treatment.
From this week:
The National Problem Gambling Clinic also use therapy to help people.
If there were facts that 12-step programs were the most effective treatment for addicts this is just two examples of places that would like to know about it.
To be clear: it is a long way from being a fact that 12-step programs are the most effective way to treat addiction.
A very long way.
Dan, you have/had no facts. Then bizarrely used project MATCH as the source of your false 'facts'.
In the absence of any answers to my simple questions on this thread I took your post and my questions to discuss at my local 12-step meeting to ensure this contradictory, misleading and potentially harmful practice of the program doesn't take place in my local community.
I do think it is wrong Dan to tell people they have a disease and then tell them it's a fact the 12-steps are the most effective treatment when you know yourself no such facts exist.
Very wrong Dan.
My opinion. Every individual must follow their own moral code.
I don't come here with questions. As previously stated that went nowhere last time: none of my questions on this thread were answered. Although the lack of acknowledgement of my simple questions, aswel as the lack of honesty and serenity in the verbally violent response you gave did provide me with some useful answers which I am grateful for.
What I do bring is an update to share with you: the answers to my questions from the 12-step group I visited, and most importantly an open opportunity Dan for you to take responsibility for the misinformation in your posts. This would put you in line with what the program teaches and be good for your own personal growth Dan.
My local 12-step group rightly condemned your post Dan - as any responsible room would. Citing it was a clear violation of tradition 11: "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films."
"Our relations with the public should be characterized by personal anonymity. A.A ought to avoid sensational advertising."
It doesn't get much more sensational than falsely claiming 'facts' that the 12-step program is the most effective addiction treatment.
I discussed my helpful reminder to you of step 10.
This led to an interesting discussion at the meeting about the importance of doing the steps in the correct order.
It was agreed that it is common behaviour for addicts to become defensive when challenged. If you accept the fact you have no facts (step 1); ask yourself whether you consider it morally right to create misleading 'facts' to pass on to vulnerable people who you consider to have a disease about the most effective treatment (step 4); this should lead you to a point you can successfully work step 10.
It was agreed this should be possible for those who do apply the 12-steps to their daily lives.
I thought a lot was taken by all from the meeting.
My experience also provides an example of how to keep in line with tradition 11 by sharing an honest, positive experience from a 12-step meeting.
It's the deliberate nature of this untruthful way to sensationally promote the program that claims to be about 'rigorous honesty' that concerns me here Dan.
The point is: people deserve to be told the truth about all the options of help available. Honest information about the available options is surely the best way to help people.
I wouldn't be wasting my time here if I didn't think you were capable of doing the right thing Dan.
My comments remain on what you have posted about GA, the 12-step program, it's traditions and AA literature. Backed up again by the program itself.
Step 10 isn't a personal attack Dan...
...it's the right thing to do.
For yourself and by the program.
Step 10: "Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."
Seems you have already taken my personal inventory for me Glint
day@atime wrote: A Secret:
More people talk about addiction than understand it. Thats because most people dont know the secret at addictions core.
The secret is control.
Because all addicts are control addicts & every addiction is an addiction to control.Control what? FEELINGS
We addicts are people who cant deal with feelings & so feel compelled to find something that makes feelings go away ( work, s*x, gambling, alcohol, shopping, drugs etc) . Anything that alters our mood can be turned into an addiction. That includes behaviours not inherently unhealthy like exercise, or meditation or even say volunteering.
The variations are infinate, but they share the same root. The need to alter or control how one feels.
I personally have used many things to control my feelings. Alcohol, women, work, drugs & of course my most self destructive one gambling. Today I use GA but cant write about that as i am still in a small amount of denial around it.
These are just a few of the things i have used to take me to my safe place. The Garden of Numb. You know the place, its where your focus narrows, and the world goes away, anxiety recedes & tension & worry disappear for at least a short time.
The problems arise when you can no longer live outside of the garden.
My various addictions each took on a life of their own. Each stopped being something i was doing & became something that was doing me!. I lost control of the very thing i was using to control how i managed my feelings.
At GA meetings we generally look at two things initially through Step1.
1/ What people do, repeatedly & compulsively to get themselves into the garden &
2/ How impaired this controlling behaviour leaves them.As a general rule this is what we see.
Bad feelings:
Since they have no way but numbness to manage their feelings & since nobody can stay numb constantly, addicts are emotionally uncomfortable much of the time.Bad choices:
Since the unconcious priority of addiction is feelings management, addicts tend to follow the path that is least emotionally threatening to them( so for example gambling addicts will focus on debt & monetary issues) & their decision making reflects this instead of say a more healthy choice such as say, awareness of reality, determination to solve problems or concern for the needs & feelings of others.Bad Relationships.
Addicts struggle with relationships simply because addicts arent present in the moment, their feelings are missing or subdued & impaired. So they cant be fully honest or authentic & on the flip side cant tolerate honesty & authenticity in others. They struggle to communicate in a way that promotes real connection, real intimacy & mutual understanding.Feelings are a kind of waste material, the emotional by product of our experiences. Just as physical waste must be expelled from our bodies, feelings must be also, they must be expressed- not hidden or stored away. When they arent, we get sick, emotionally, physically, spiritually.
Humans express themselves or depress themselves
Hi Dan,
Just reread this post. I needed it. I'm in the process of stuffing some feelings and of course urges to gamble appear front and center. Express the feelings. Squash the urge. Move on. I don't like days like these... anyway thatnks for posting this Dan. -joanx
That is indeed an excellent post and makes good food for thought.
There is much wisdom to be harvested on the diaries but one must be prepared to listen and also be willing to keep an open mind.
The nodding of the head on it's own will not suffice. The time has come for action. We need to take back control of our lives...Stephen
day@atime wrote: FINDING YOURSELF
Here are 6 of the most common personality profiles for people with addictions. Which one most fits you?
THE CARETAKER
в—Џ I generally feel responsible for the happiness of others.
в—Џ I have often bent the rules to bail people out of trouble that they brought on themselves.
в—Џ Sometime I wonder why so many people lean on me without being sensitive to my need to lean sometimes
в—Џ I find it easier to take care of others than to take care of myself
в—Џ I never have enough time to accomplish the things I want to do.
в—Џ I am more interested in talking about & trying to fix other peoples problems than my ownTHE PEOPLE PLEASER
в—Џ I have trouble saying no even when i know I should
в—Џ I often say it doesnt matter when it really does
в—Џ I seldom feel angry but often feel hurt
в—Џ In the name of peace, I try to avoid talking about problems
в—Џ I usually feel other peoples needs & opinions are more important than my own
в—Џ I often apologise
в—Џ I would rather give in than stand up for my beliefTHE WORKAHOLIC
в—Џ I rarely feel that I accomplish what I need to
в—Џ When i relax, I experience more guilt than pleasure
в—Џ I dont take joy or pride at the conclusion of one task before moving onto another
в—Џ It seems to me people are in my way quite often
в—Џ I put less value on personal time than work time
в—Џ I spend more time, energy & effort on work than on relationshipsTHE MARTYR
в—Џ I am usually willing to do without so others can have what they want
в—Џ I feel I have terrible luck in life
в—Џ My first impulse is to say no when something enjoyable is on offer for me
в—Џ My second impulse is to wonder why I dont like enjoying myself
в—Џ When life runs smoothly for a while, I begin to anticipate all the things that may go wrong
в—Џ I believe that life is a struggle & I accept suffering as my lot in lifeTHE PERFECTIONIST
в—Џ I am often amazed at the incompetence of others
в—Џ I cant stand it when things arent just so.
в—Џ I find unpredictability intolerable
в—Џ I have a burning desire to put everyone right
в—Џ Any kind of personal failure is the worst thing I can imagine
в—Џ It seems to me that everyone elses standards dont quite match up to mineTHE TAP DANCER
в—Џ I find it difficult or impossible to share with anyone the whole truth
в—Џ I would rather end a relationship than make a wholehearted commitment to it
в—Џ Figuring out what I can get away with is exciting to me
в—Џ I have an abiding fear of being caught, cornered or questioned
в—Џ I always have a plan B in mind incase I need to escape
в—Џ To avoid feeling lonely, I have to run faster away than I used to.No one is perfect. Everyone faces some of these obstacles. Even though we may shake our heads & say My God im all of those things, the issue is that, we can deal with anything we can name & identify. We just need to acknowledge it & be willing to work on it.
This is not an exercise to see how broken we are, but to understand that if we can identify the obstacles of our habitual thinking & are willing to work through them, then we will increase our opportunity for growth.
Perhaps pick one you most indentify with & ask a friend or loved one which one they think most resembles you. Interesting to see if you view yourself the same as others do
For the record my default setting was Tap Dancer with a bit of caretaker thrown in for good measure. Identifying the obstacles I put in my way, shows me where the real work needed to begin
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