Killing the Zombie

It's probably not that it's really suppressed anger as such but your no longer a kid anymore that can be dismissed as easily , it's one adult talking frankly to another which in itself is fine but can be quite difficult for a father as he probably see's it as relinquishing his authority as head of the house as it were ? . 

He's being pushed into a corner for a conversation that he really doesn't want to have and desperately trying to find an escape route and avoiding the subject could be the way forward for him ? . 

Could you not bring it up again during a phone conversation , it's not ideal but could keep the dialogue open again until you next meet ? 

He's probably thinking you'll have forgotten in 6 weeks or maybe again say He's no idea what it is your talking about ? :)) . 

I'm pretty sure someone could pretend they have dementia but maybe even he wouldn't go that far ?   Would he ? :)) . 

Just off to bed so talk to you soon Louis 🙂  

Bloody hell Louis , It's now 1.04 and I'm still thinking on your post :((. 

Trying to think how I would have felt in your shoes ??..     The truth is for me it didn't happen as I lost my dad when I was 19 and he was 47 but the way I always felt about him during growing up I know in my heart that I would probably have met the wall of silence that your currently experiencing , mum would have a reply to any of my questions however difficult but dad was brought up by his parent's who showed little love or emotion to him and this in turn although not to the same degree was passed down to me .

I have a 34 yr old daughter and a son of 24 and in light of what I said above  have always made a point of allowing them to ask any questions they need answering and given those answers to the best of my ability , I'm also guessing that you'd be that kind of father to your kid's , especially considering what you've been through with addiction and the sticking the fingers in the ear's while singing LA , LA ,LA from your father ?. 

You may never get that talk nor the answers you seek from him and while I'm not suggesting you should stop having the courage to  try for the answers maybe as we always say on here  sometimes " It's better to accept the thing's we cannot change " ?.

Not sure this is helping your struggle really and it may have wandered of your original post , just a few thought's as I couldn't sleep but thank's for listening :)) . 

Wishing you well Louis  

Posted by: A 9

Bloody hell Louis , It's now 1.04 and I'm still thinking on your post :((. 

Trying to think how I would have felt in your shoes ??..     The truth is for me it didn't happen as I lost my dad when I was 19 and he was 47 but the way I always felt about him during growing up I know in my heart that I would probably have met the wall of silence that your currently experiencing , mum would have a reply to any of my questions however difficult but dad was brought up by his parent's who showed little love or emotion to him and this in turn although not to the same degree was passed down to me .

I have a 34 yr old daughter and a son of 24 and in light of what I said above  have always made a point of allowing them to ask any questions they need answering and given those answers to the best of my ability , I'm also guessing that you'd be that kind of father to your kid's , especially considering what you've been through with addiction and the sticking the fingers in the ear's while singing LA , LA ,LA from your father ?. 

You may never get that talk nor the answers you seek from him and while I'm not suggesting you should stop having the courage to  try for the answers maybe as we always say on here  sometimes " It's better to accept the thing's we cannot change " ?.

Not sure this is helping your struggle really and it may have wandered of your original post , just a few thought's as I couldn't sleep but thank's for listening :)) . 

Wishing you well Louis  

Thanks for your thoughts Alan. I can't imagine how difficult it must've been to lose your father when you were 19.

It's a weird one as my dad's approach is probably very common for men of his generation. Although he was born in the early 1940s. And I thought his generation were meant to be a break away from their generation - swinging 60s, sexual liberation etc. I know he's smoked a bit of erb before - so it's not like he's some typically stiff-upper lipped type.

I think it's more relevant that he his dad had an emotionaly distant relationship with him. He's pretty happy with how he is. He just 'gets on with it'. It's hard to say he's wrong.

This will no doubt go against the G(A)rain....but I get the impression my dad thinks my problems are mine. But I actually think he and my mum are partly responsible for who I am, which includes my addiction. I've got their genes for starters. And they're the people I've learnt most of my behaviour from.

Hi Louis, you want to have that conversation and he's saying in 6 weeks. So you become agitated or upset. I talked a lot about this in therapy. It's about control. I think parents don't want to engage when they're older, they're tired of it. Yes these are your problems and you're the only one who can change you. If you push him to talk what will happen? Will he just be silent? I would keep pushing because I'm like that, but sometimes that's not the way forward. You can't make him talk if he doesn't want to. Avoidance causes anxiety. It's all very emotional. I don't believe parents are responsible for their children's addiction, but I do think that you learn from your parents. My cgs father was his enabler. My cgs mother just ignores it. It's what we do that counts. Acceptance. It doesn't mean they don't care.

Yes MGR. That seems pretty insightful into my circs.

It's a funny one. Sometimes I have moments of doubt mysef. What is it that I'm seeking from my dad? Sometimes it IS hard to put into words. But that's because what's concering me is indeed to do with emotions and a relationship/connection with another person.

And so it's not hard to see why he's a bit confused - particularly when it's like I'm speaking some foreign language. A frank language of feelings, introspection, psychology.

Yet, although it's hard to put into words, words are the only way forward. I did say to him that if he really can't be &rsed, then so be it and I'll have to deal with it. Don't think we're quite there yet.

It's probably not he can't be a@*sed, he probably doesn't know how. I see that in my cg, he doesn't know how to communicate how he feels. It's often very painful. Take it slowly, let him talk to you when he's ready. Focus on spending time together and enjoying that, develop closeness that way?

Many positive developments since my last post.

A long, really positive discussion with my dad. He finally seemed to get it and actually was really grateful that I've been taking the time to try and get my message across with him.

My mum is a little bit defensive towards my dad - but I think that's because she's been third party to discussions. She's feels protective towards my dad - probably feels like my dad's under attack a bit. Which I don't think is right. She alluded to counselling being a good thing but means that there could be an excessive focus on me. Well, in a sense, of course counselling is all about me. But this style of counselling I've been getting is largely focusing on relationships. So I don't think she's right.

The counsellor seems pretty happy with how things are going. Going to move to fortnighty and then consider stopping.

He asked how things were in terms of the core issue around social anxiety. I said that I hadn't really had 'testing' situations recently so couldn't say. However, turns out I had - it's just that they weren't as painful and so I hand't really registered.

Had a recent kids/parents meetup thing - I was extremely tired which normally makes for an anxious state - but this time, whilst still a bit anxious, was more content just taking a back seat and taking it easy. Often my sense that I could be being perceived as being shy/quiet would be itself a further cause of anxiety.

So there does seem to be progress. But having gone down the family route for a while it's good to be back on track with some broader key messages to work on, narratives to build up:

Acceptance - of internal sensations, thoughts, feelings. Taking them for what they are rather than fusing with them. An axious state itself is manageable and in fact normal and can even be used as a positive. But things can get really painful if I start worrying about the anxiety, labeling myself further to anxiety.

Merging realities - often there's been a difference between the 'comfortable me', ie. who I am in comfortable settings such a close friends, my partner and kids etc, and the 'threatened me', ie. who I am in situations where I perceive some kind of imagined threat (need to impress). Of course these 2 worlds aren't, and shouldn't totally merge, but the threatened me can become far more aligned to the comfortable me. This is about trusting myself.

Instinct - linked to the above. As my default mode, from years of practice, is go into threatened mode and inadvertently  close down my positive traits such as creativity, empathy, spontaneity, humour (the list could go on), there's a need to really trust my instinct massively more. I learned to distrust my instinct as this appeared to be a safe option. But it's actually a debilitating one. Again this is about trusting myself but its positive approach.

The counsellor seemed really positive that I'd gone out on a limb a bit to try to forge a new path with my dad and parents.

Talked about self-labelling - how this is obviously a dangerous path to go down as it puts you in a straight jacket you can't get out of. But I thought that this labelling is similar to family dynamics of fitting into certain roles. I'd said that I felt uncertain about where to go with family following these 'big discussions'.

...Whilst I don't want all the dynamics to return, I still want some normal and non-heavy chat. Or I want to be able to go in and out of meaningful and normal chat, without it being a big deal. And I think the fact there isn't a trodden path before to go down - it's new ground and that's the uncertainty. That's breaking out of labels and constraints, which is exciting.

Terrible night of non-sleep further to late evening phone calls with family.

Turns out my dad spoke to my sister, seemingly still in some state of confusion about what is going on. According to my dad, he and my mum hand't realised how long my addiction had been - he'd though 3-4 years. Not the 12 odd years it was. I'm 90% sure I did tell them the duration, in fact certain  I did. But perhaps when you drop a bombshell on someone, some of the detail doesn't get picked up.

Now totally appreciated what a big thing it was. And he even said something like 'you've talked about 'openness' being the key - but really you wanted recognition from me about what you'd been through'.

Which choked me a bit when he said that. So yes.

But then my sister phones later - and it seems that it wasn't just the duration which she lighlighted, but the 'depth'. It seems that she was able to make them see the wood for the trees. Which I'm grateful for.

However, a little bit of me is, again, frustrated by the fact that it took my sister to make them open their eyes. I've literally been telling them exactly why this has been so important to me - the counsellor, the social anxiety which might lie behind it, even telling my dad it might be because I have felt I don't measure up to him. And....it' s not even like I've been telling this in some unengaging/robotic manner. I had a few tears/voice shaking/struggling to get words out situation - so it's frustrating.

But on the other hand it maybe isn't so important. They know now and that's the main thing.

Late night heavy and emotionally charged phone calls clearly aren't good for my sleep though. I just got a sleep app for my phone yesterday and had it running last night. Shows I slept from 12.45 until 4am. Which is actually better than what it felt at the time.

Unconnected random thought. There clearly is no thing as a rock bottom* as there's always some new level you can slip to. The only hope is that, through attempts to be self-reflective, honest with ourselves and others, and to implement positive change ( recovery**), a low stage in our lives will in perpetuity be looked back on as rock bottom. At least in terms of our wanton self-destruction (No doubt the pain of grief, illness and death will in their own ways be a far greater low).

Disclaimers/explainers:

*rock bottom - I can't actually pinpoint a specific low point. But I would put it more like - there's grade of human existance, from zero to 100.  100 being the absolute pinnacle of human flourishing. My rock bottom is just more like prolongued periods of time in the murky depths, far nearer to zero than 100.

**recovery - it's been done before. But this term 'recovery' is absolutely awful. Sure I get that it has some kind of specific meaning with the Steps programme and I'm not in a position to properly comment in that context - although my intuition is that it is used in an unhelpful manner across the board.

It's just such a blunt, dead expression which provides a get out clause so that people don't have to describe what's going on in their lives, what they're trying to achieve and what they're trying to do to achieve whatever it is they're trying to achieve. It's like by invoking 'The Word' it imbues your journey with a sufficient degree of seriousness and a smidging of spirituality, in order to dispose of the past and start afresh. Which in some ways would be great if possible. Or at least, if it is possible, it's not done by the use of a supposedly clever word.

I just about realise that I'm getting hung up about words, whilst also now saying that words are meaningless. I need more sleep.

Had my last counselling sessions yesterday. What a great journey I've been on guided by this great chap.

I still have slight concern- will I regress now that I'm not performing for my mentor? Will I still function in this more positive manner now that I don't have this dedicated space to air my thoughts?

He seemed confident and was impressed with the positive steps I've been taking around my family relationships. None of the actions I've taken were at his suggestion.

These 7 or 8 sessions I've had have brought some real clarity to the nature of my issues and how these play out in my life. But it's not just looking AT the issue - but actually developing a strategy of how to respond to this.

In a sense the 'answer' is simple - it's about self-belief. But that really is just the answer and obviously if I just say 'you need self-belief', to someone in dire need of this, then this is an entirely pointless thing to say - as it's just words.

The answer is self-belief, but for me there are guiding principals which get me there..

Acceptance - of difficult thoughts, emotions and inner experiences.

Tolerance - Expanding my window of tolerance.  My willingness to sit in situations which are ambiguous or uncertain - these have often been a source of discomfort as I struggle to find a rule book to provide me with certainty on how to behave. Appreciating that ambiguity and uncertainty are experienced by others too.

Closing the gap -Working towards closing the gap between my comfortable self and myself when I feel excessively judged. This is really more abstract and akin to the 'answer' of more self-belief.

Instinct and failure - Linked to the last point. Trusting my instinct. Allowing for failure. Trusting my creativity. Allowing for failure. Knowing that there's no one keeping score, no record being kept.

This is my framework towards greater self-belief.

Hi cardhue,

How have you been since your last entry? You had wondered how it will be going forward now that your counselling has ended. 

Wishing you all the best. Stay strong

Forum Admin

Hi Forum Admin - humbled that you should be asking after little-me.

I'm fine thanks. Had a great weekend in the Dales with us and my partner's bezzy and her partner and kid.

I remember fairly hideous, previous anxiety inducing experiences, trapped in a cottage with my previous partner's friends that I seemed unable to 'be myself around'.

But this was actually enjoyable. The Saturday in particular I really relaxed and hit peak form.  Granted the friends are lovely, but niceness has actually never previously been a key factor in my levels of comfort/discomfort.

It's funny how I can be confident in discreet areas and less so in others. I'm due to do a best man speech next weekend and am maybe going to Belgium to give a talk for work. This doesn't really phase me. At some point in time I decided I was good at public speaking - or more like my confidence in this area has developed and, particularly through work, I just set increasing challenges and there's a snowball effect of positive reinforcement.

Yet put me in a room for a few hours with certain people whom I seek approval from, then I can struggle. At least that's been the case- hopefully I'm starting to see some change there. Early days but things seem promising.

The only downside from my weekend was on the final night, going for quite a few too many beers. I felt terrible the next day and everything became a huge struggle.  It felt like the bad old days in terms of my self-consciousness, paranoia and being withdrawn.  It highlights to me how utterly undermining alcohol can be in excess.  I can see how I used to enjoy a few too many beers, largely for the sake of social confidence and 'letting myself go'. Yet there's huge payback the next day, including a sense that the confidence of the night before - and even the general experience - was somehow false.  The confidence cycle doesn't work if booze is involved.

Dear Louis

Thank you so much for posting on my diary. I read and re-read your words which really touched me and resonated.

In fact you were spot on. I have built up a lot of default mechanisms and developed behaviour traits to protect me from emotional engagement and in particular feelings of hurt and pain and regret.

You are also right in saying that it doesn’t help to compare with others in their recovery journey- or in fact as  I have learned with successful non gambling friends. I think I am just yearning to change and I know it is up to me to do that and change the default reactions.

Correct: I must push to move out of my non- engaged, non emotional, badly behaved comfort zone to embrace life in the moment and good and bad feelings along the way. As you have said reason and understanding can only take us so far. The point is to really alter how we act in our daily lives. 

I have read some of your posts and have  been impressed by your efforts in recovery and in understanding yourself.

Keep up the fantastic progress.

Thanks again Rob

Just a quick update.

Week long big-family weekend in a cottage. Again my parents silent on the gambling/openness issue....until the evening of day 5 in the big brother house.

I called a family meeting at 10pm. Said I wasn't happy with how things were going -too much uptightness and lack of talk.

Really odd as such a move quite at odds with my 42 years of family dynamics.

Was quite hostile towards my dad in particular - as I'd been harbouring resentment for some time. Quite a few tears all round. All of my inner fears and root causes were aired in public. Which was kind of weird.

There was a repeat question people asked 'what is it you want from us?'. Which isn't always easy to answer. But I think that's because it's hard to put emotional needs into words.

Then there was the morning after - no one had any sleep, and wary of how to react. I felt slightly bad for being a bit nasty to my dad. Did have a bit of an apology when we parted ways - but didn't want to overdo it. As how I was, was a manifestation of how I felt. Of built up emotions. So it seemed wrong to then row-back on my feelings.

I think people do apprecaite that I'm trying to be positive by getting stuff in the open - rather than simmering away in private.

Can't imagine having such an open discussion even a few years ago.

I think part of the issue with family, is that I was a ‘functional addict’ - by that I mean there were few obvious signs of addiction or suffering.

i was also highly secretive. A bit skint but that’s hardly unique.

so when I talk about a 14 year addiction- there’s some surprise, but the primary response is ‘ thank god you’re  over it‘. You can now, and seem to have, moved forwards.

Also, like most they will think of an addiction happening in a vacuum rather than it being a symptom of something else.

When I had the family gathering and heart to heart my dad, again, was a heart-wrenching picture of an oldish man looking sad and confused, genuinely trying, and struggling, to understand.

It’s not true to say that everyone needs to be open all the time. Certainly that’s my motto. However, he’s got by very well doing it his own way.  

He is kind, caring intelligent and has, by any metric had an excellent life.

As I write, I’m still slightly confused about what I’m trying to achieve. I really don’t think it’s approval – the need for which from my dad has probably plagued me throughout much of my life.

I think that, as well as empathy and understanding, I’m seeking to redefine my role within the family dynamics. To move away from a more passive role. 

And to do this I’m not working on some thought-out strategy.I’m using my intuition and changing the way I communicate and thereby altering the nature of relationships.

And so from this angle, what I’m doing makes perfect sense. 

Hi Louis

Thanks for posting about this. It brought back a lot of raw feelings for me of a time when I had the same conversation with my family.

It started when I was living back home with them again and my dad kept coming down on me for ending up back at home - this manifested in him coming down on me for every little faux pas I happened to make - breaking what little resolve and self-worth I had foraged since living away from home - historic behaviour indeed. I had a moan to a friend one night and he advised me "never ever to be ashamed or embarrassed about who you are, how you choose to live your life and what mistakes you make along the way. If the generation preceding us cannot understand the choices we make then that is symptomatic of them feeling left behind, not you doing wrong, and making you feel bad is their way of clinging on"

I felt inspired, awakened if you will.

Next time he poked me it all came out - similar dynamics to what you described when you spoke to your family - and a similar fallout and aftermath.

I just wanted to salute you for having it out - redefining your role within the family as you have so eloquently put it.

It's definitely an awakening of some kind. Embrace it.

However I think the thing that gnaws away in the aftermath is the school of thought that suggests we should always endeavour 'to meet people in their world' 

Or maybe that's how we've been conditioned if you know what I mean? Growing up dancing to other peoples tunes? Cue the shock, horror and awkwardness when low and behold - turns out we have our own tune and hold on to your hats because we want to blast it out now!

My view (for what it's worth) is that after moments like these, those involved load the apples back onto the cart as quickly as possible and move it along - you can let that happen - time will pass - and everything will pretty much go back to how it was before - your awakening would ultimately have very little impact in the grand scheme of things and it will be put down in the history books as an 'outburst'.

Consistency is the key thing here my friend. Start as you mean to go on - like most things the discomfort eventually makes way for familiarity if you keep working at this - the effort eventually evolves into the habitual, for you and for everyone else in question ✌️ a shift in dynamics will occur.

Wishing you all the best in your endeavours ?